General Vang Pao Arrested????

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
If anyone wants to know how Thailand was involved:

Thailand, a US military ally, was to be the unwitting launching pad for the "military expedition" by the Americans and Hmong to infiltrate Laos. The alleged target was Vientiane, the languid capital of Laos, just across the Mekong River from Thailand.

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Thailand provided the US with airbases, Thai troops, "rest and recreation" facilities and other assistance to fight in Laos, but Bangkok now deals with Laos as a friendly commercial partner and trendy tourist destination.

Source: http://www.vientianetimes.com/Headlines.html
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
More...

The Laos plot thickens

Sacramento, California
US investigators now believe that an alleged plot to overthrow the Laos government by arms may have involved a former Wisconsin state senator and even a US congressman, but Hmong icon Vang Pao denied there was any such plan.

Many Hmong refugees wonder why they even left Thailand.

Vang Pao's lawyer said the general was innocent of all charges after his client's brief appearance in federal court in Sacramento on Tuesday.

"General Vang Pao has worked actively to pursue peaceful solutions to the problems in Laos and has disavowed violence," attorney John Balazs told reporters outside the courthouse.

Reports from the US said that at a community center in Fresno, dozens of Hmong immigrants who attended a Monday night English lesson fell silent as they absorbed the news. Several later said they felt sick and questioned why they had left their Thai refugee camp for California, if their leader, General Vang Pao, was in jail.

"I love my general. He is like my uncle," said a tearful Neng Vang, who regularly attends the nighttime language classes.

In contemporary Laos, Hmong people are still subject to detentions and human rights violations, according to the State Department.

Many recent immigrants arrive in the US still traumatised by war and decades of persecution, only to find that they are blocked from obtaining asylum or green cards under provisions of the USA Patriot Act, said Sharon Stanley, director of Fresno Interdenominational Refugee Ministries.

The Associated Press reported that the unnamed US congressman, as well as the California Highway Patrol known as CHP, apparently were unwitting parties that Hmong conspirators hoped to use to further their plans, according to court documents and interviews Tuesday with investigators on the case, AP reported.

A sworn affidavit from an undercover agent states that "probable cause exists to believe" that former Wisconsin state Senator Gary George was among those involved in the conspiracy.

"There is going to be a wealth of information we're going to be following up on," said Nina S. Delgadillo, a special agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "There may be other defendants - that's a strong possibility."

George has not been arrested or charged. Lo Cha Thao, 34, of Clovis, who once worked as an aide to the senator, was one of 10 people charged Monday in federal court in Sacramento.

The AP reports that George's attorney, Alex Flynn of Milwaukee, said the evidence in the indictment does not implicate his client.

"Gary George denies any allegations as defamatory and has as much interest in seeing the government of Laos overthrown as he does in the Klingons taking over the Starship Enterprise," Flynn told The Associated Press late Tuesday. "These allegations are preposterous."

George, 53, recently completed a four-year federal prison sentence for accepting kickbacks from a Milwaukee social service agency.

On Monday, federal prosecutors followed a six-month investigation by charging 10 people, including former Laotian military general Vang Pao and a former officer in the California National Guard.

Investigators said they may charge others as the investigation continues and they examine material seized from 14 locations across California, the AP says.

"We will go wherever the evidence takes us," First Assistant US Attorney Larry Brown said Tuesday outside a federal court hearing for four of the defendants.

He would not specifically say whether authorities were investigating the congressman, George or others referred to in the federal court documents.

Among those arrested Monday was Vang Pao, 77, a former general in the Royal Army of Laos who led Hmong counterinsurgents before he fled to the United States with thousands of other Hmong refugees after the Vietnam War.

Also charged were eight other members of the California Hmong community and a former California National Guard officer, Harrison Jack.

The 10 face charges that include violating the federal Neutrality Act by plotting the violent overthrow of Laos' communist government. A federal complaint alleges the men were raising money to recruit a mercenary force and buy $9.8 million worth of automatic weapons, grenades, rockets and shoulder-fired missiles.

The alleged plot unraveled because the arms dealer who was to supply the weapons and mercenaries was actually an undercover federal agent.

Investigators would not say how they believe George, the former Wisconsin senator, was involved in the plot. But Mark Reichel, the attorney appointed to represent Lo Cha Thao, said his client worked for George and two other Wisconsin state senators before returning to California about two years ago.

His client was recruited by the lawmakers after distinguishing himself with his work from 1994-1999 in a youth gang and drug prevention program run by the California National Guard, Reichel said.

Reichel said his client is innocent but said he and the others might have been trying to act to prevent persecution of Hmong who remain in Laos.

"The Hmong are being horribly slaughtered in Laos, and these individuals are aware of it," Reichel said.

The criminal complaint also refers to the alleged conspirators trying to get help from a US congressman, who is not named.

On April 12, federal investigators recorded a telephone call between Lo Cha Thao and Jack, a Vietnam veteran and retired lieutenant colonel in the California National Guard. They were discussing a conference call between national Hmong leaders and a congressman, according to court documents.

"Thao said that his group had been consulting with a United States congressman and had received advice concerning ‘under table strategies' from military personnel like Harrison Jack and an unnamed ‘CIA guy,'" according to the federal affidavit.

During a March 5 meeting at a Sacramento restaurant, Jack told the undercover ATF agent posing as an arms dealer that he had contacted a commissioner with the California Highway Patrol and arranged for Hmong leaders to help recruit people to become CHP officers.

The goal was for the Hmong officers, once trained, to eventually "abandon the CHP and move to Laos to take positions of trust in the law enforcement departments of the new Lao government," according to an affidavit attached to the criminal complaint.

CHP spokesman Tom Marshall said Assistant Commissioner Arthur Anderson was contacted and arranged a March 7 tour of the CHP academy in West Sacramento for Jack and 26 Hmong representatives, including at least four who now face federal charges.

"It was presented as an opportunity to recruit people from the Laotian community. We don't know about this other stuff," Marshall told the AP on Tuesday.

The CHP is cooperating with federal investigators, he said, but "there is no indication of any criminal activity on the part of our people."

Also Tuesday, the permanent secretary for the Lao Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Somphet Khoukahoun, said he would wait to comment until authorities were briefed by US officials.

The Thai government declined to comment before a verdict was reached.

"Thailand will not tolerate the use of its territory for any movement that undermines the stability of its neighboring countries," said Tharit Charungvat, a spokesman for Thailand's Foreign Affairs Ministry.

After fighting as US-backed guerillas in Laos, members of the ethnic minority were all but abandoned when the country fell to communist forces in 1975. More than 300,000 Laotian refugees, mostly Hmong, fled into Thailand.

About 145,000 members of Laotian ethnic groups have resettled in the US, establishing large enclaves in Minneapolis, Fresno and in cities throughout Wisconsin, a US State Department spokesman said.

The 10 men named in two federal complaints include beloved members of Central California's Hmong community. Among them were the founder of Fresno's annual Hmong International New Year celebration and a former police officer from the nearby suburb of Clovis.

YES! They are actually touching on the killings in Laos!
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
More...PLEASE READ!

Laos must make peace with Hmong

Vang Pao's arrest offers Vientiane a chance to peacefully reintegrate the ethnic minority into its society

The interception by United States authorities of a plot by Hmong rebels, including General Vang Pao, to overthrow the Lao government by force probably put the final nail in the coffin of Hmong expatriates' dreams of liberating their people from alleged systematic persecution by the communist regime in Vientiane. Small remnants of anti-communist Hmong guerrilla groups are still believed to be fighting a sporadic jungle war against Vientiane. Laos has alleged that Vang Pao and some Hmong expats in the US had, on several occasions in the past, raised funds to finance raids against Lao government positions from staging areas inside of Thailand, an accusation denied by Bangkok.

The arrest of Vang Pao, a warlord who led a secret army backed by the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to combat Lao and Vietnamese communist insurgents until the end of the Indochina war in the mid 1970s, and eight other California-based Hmong by US authorities on charges of violating the US Neutrality Act, coincided with an improvement in Lao-US relations in recent years.


The US re-established normal trade relations with Laos in 2004 and has since expanded cooperation in economic and social development, including technical assistance and development grants, as well as engaging in a joint campaign against drug trafficking.


After the fall of Laos to the communists in 1975, the Hmong ethnic minority who fought alongside the US-backed royalist regime of the time was abandoned by retreating US forces in 1975. More than 300,000 Laotian refugees, mostly Hmong, fled into Thailand and most of them have since been resettled in third countries.


As court proceedings get underway in California, the prosecution team will produce further evidence to substantiate the charges against the alleged anti-Vientiane plot by Vang Pao and other defendants, including one former US national guard officer.


While the US action that may have pre-empted an alleged coup attempt against a country with which it has friendly ties is to be commended, the international community should not turn a blind eye to the well-documented plight of ethnic Hmong at the hands of the Lao government.


Thailand, which currently hosts some 7,700 ethnic Hmong who claim to have fled persecution in Laos in recent years, should not use the case against Vang Pao as a pretext to unburden itself of the Hmong refugee situation through the forcible repatriation of those now living in a holding centre. Thailand, which is getting impatient with Hmong asylum seekers, has begun the forcible repatriation of ethnic Hmong to Laos.


By cooperating with Laos and sending Hmong asylum seekers back to a country where many of them will face harsh punishment or persecution, Thailand also benefits by improving its economic and trade ties with Vientiane. But the Thai government must be reminded that it is supposed to live up to its obligation to uphold the human rights of ethnic Hmong who have sought shelter on its soil.


The Lao government - which is getting closer to removing the thorn in its side regarding the Hmong question once and for all thanks to the helpful actions of friendly countries like the US and Thailand - should at least let go of old grudges and show magnanimity toward the Hmong, who make up the biggest ethnic minority group in the country. Every attempt should be made by Vientiane to bring the Hmong back into the fold by adopting more reconciliatory gestures, particularly a willingness to respect these people's basic human rights.


Any repatriation of Hmong asylum seekers must be made on a voluntary basis, and returnees should be accorded proper treatment and their basic human rights must be respected. The international community must make sure that the Lao government's promise to respect the ethnic Hmong minority is verified by impartial observers.


More than three decades have passed since the end of the war and both the Lao government and the Hmong should put the painful chapter behind them. Latter generations of innocent Hmong should not be punished for the actions of their ancestors. Laos should learn to be at peace with itself.
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
As a teenager in World War II, Vang Pao fought the Japanese, who were trying the take over Laos. In the 1950s he joined the French in the war against the North Vietnamese who were dominating Laos, and later worked with the CIA to wage a covert war there.

Credit: KBS

This might be why GVP loves the country of LAOS so much!
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
US lawyers call accused Laos coup leaders "heroes"

By Suzanne Hurt

SACRAMENTO, Calif., June 5 (Reuters) - A Hmong leader and others charged with attempting to overthrow the Communist government in Laos are heroes with high integrity who oppose violence, their attorneys said on Tuesday.

Ten people, including retired U.S. Army officer Harrison Ulrich Jack, 60, were arrested and charged on Monday with conspiring to violate the federal Neutrality Act by planning to foster a coup in Laos, a country with which the United States is not at war.

One of the group, Pao Vang, is a 77-year-old former general in the Royal Lao Army who many consider a leader of the Hmong people. He led Hmongs in fighting against the Communist Pathet Lao and allied with the U.S. during the Vietnam War.

"General Vang Pao stands wrongly accused of the criminal charges against him," his court-appointed attorney, John Balazs, told reporters. "Since immigrating to the United States in 1975, General Vang Pao has been a tireless advocate for democracy, human rights and the Hmong people. (He) has worked actively to pursue peaceful solutions to the problems in Laos and has disavowed violence."

Balazs, who had represented Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski, made his comments after Vang's initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Sacramento.

Vang appeared solemn and bowed his head as he entered the packed courtroom with two other defendants, Locha Thao and Lo Thao, president of Hmong United International, an exile political organization.

All three wore orange jumpsuits and were shackled at the wrists, waist and ankles.

Vang and Thao listened to proceedings via an interpreter. Locha Thao, who speaks English, was born in Laos and lived in refugee camps in Thailand before emigrating and becoming an aide to three Wisconsin state senators.

"These are individuals who have strong feelings about things that go on with Hmongs in Laos," said Locha Thao's attorney Mark Reichel.

Vang led Hmong soldiers' efforts to rescue downed American pilots and provide ground support that included guiding American military advisors in remote sections of Laos, said Balazs and a Sacramento Hmong leader, Lue Vang.

Many Hmongs left Laos after the Communists took power at the end of the Vietnam War in 1975.

Vang is considered the leader of the Hmong internationally, said Vue, an administrator with the Sacramento school district.

"Vang Pao is our leader, our father, our hero," he said.

Bail hearings were set for Friday and Monday.
 

natty

Chubs
thanks for the post ceda.. i read that post this morning in one of the other thai forums.. glad you post it here and hopefully people are reading this.. and it's not just some bs internet spew out.. in today's age.. news not only for televisions and newsstand.. they also post them on the internet.
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
About 3,000 destitute Hmong - a handful of whom may be lightly armed - are said to be on the run in the mountainous jungles of northern Laos amid an ongoing assault by government soldiers. The Lao government dismisses reports about the group.


Laos' Foreign Ministry spokesman Yong Chanthalangsy, said his people were the "victims of trafficking syndicates". There were no active dissident groups in Laos, he said.
 

max

sarNie Elites
Thanks for keeping us update. I live in an all American city, so it is hard to obtain information =)
 

versus00

sarNie Egg
First of all, thanks Ceda for defending and providing news links. Sadly, so many of the members who have commented here are not reading because their posts are full of thoughts without knowledge.

i don't really care about the man. i only care about the Hmong name. he's a murder to me. he has assisinated many hmong leaders. he killed them for his own greeds to be a leader. We lost some good leaders, who had potentials to lead Hmong people because of this man. now he did the same thing...only this time he got caught. Not only me, I think a lot of people see him as a murder. He wanted power too much. His days as a leader was over a long time ago...he should realize that.

There are some good Hmong leaders out there...just not GP. He only did for himself. For all his crimes he had committed, he deserved to be in jail.
In retrospect, George Washington's hands weren't clean either yet we Americans appreciate his leadership. In a time of war, no soldier is clean. It is difficult to survive in a world of power and competition without killing, understand that. If GVP really only wanted power, he would have never sided in with America and risked thousands of Hmong lives. GVP would have sided in with the Communists and enjoyed complete dictatorship. Apparently, GVP was loyal to the royal family, loyal to his own people, and would rather die fighting than to surrender to communists who killed so cold bloodedly.

Here goes our Hmong reputation....
The only Hmong reputation we have is, we are a race of no union. Even at a time like this, we bicker among one another; instead of appreciating our history and leaders of the past, we point fingers and blame each other just to save our own butts so the world would not think different of us even if that means attacking our very own culture.

Lets take in different perspective, do you really think that Vang Pao actually help the Hmong people? Have you ever think about if it wasn't for Vang Pao Hmong people would not have to fled Laos? Maybe Vang Pao is the cause of all the problems that Hmong people are facing or have to go through...Maybe Vang Pao lies to his people and/or use them to gain his reputation...Vang Pao may be the cause of all the horrible lives that some Hmong people had to face...how can you say to come together and support him? If he did wrong then he should be punish...otherwise there is no point of having rules, etc...
In a time of war especially involving the communists, they killed anyone who was not willing to wear communist colors, there were no neutral grounds, understand that. It was because of GVP who managed to make a promise with the American government that immigrated our parents into this country. If GVP did not side in with America, did not side in with the communists, all of our parents and villages would have been wiped out clean because no one would have cared from both sides. Communits killed anyone, anyone that doesn't belong in their group, including their own Laotians. Why do you think, not only Hmongs were scramming for their lives, but Laotians, Vietnamese, to Cambodians tagged along the borders.

Hmm...interesting.

I heard about this but just the name Vang Pao and then the word "money."

Kill thousands of innocense to save thousands of innocents?

Or...
Money. I would understand if GVP bought himself a few mansions, a few limited edition cars, a few of this and that with that money collected but what does he do with the money? He saves it, invests it into saving the thousands of innocents lives still waiting in Laos. War is never clean, there is bound to be innocent lives lost. If you ask me, at least GVP has enough courage to fulfill his promises and do something about the genocide rather than sit here and complain.

I am disappointed to read all of these comments. One thing the younger Hmong generation needs to remember is, you learn to appreciate your culture, your history, and your own people, milestones and mistakes included. No one culture is perfect. Before you begin saying something, you research it thoroughly. Before, I didn't understand as well but as I've matured, now 18, I have come to realize that the Hmong people are very disbanded and that is very sad.

Anti-hmong, I truly believe you are the most pathetic of them all. It's fine that you embrace another culture but is it so hard not to attack a culture you wish to disassociate with? You spend a whole lot of time bashing the Hmong culture you dearly hate, what for? No one is holding you back from entering a new culture but please, save yourself some respect and dignity, leave the Hmong culture alone.

For those who don't wish to support GVP, if you can't help, then please, the least you can do is not hurt him and his supporters with your harsh words. To hear these words from your own race is more than daggers to the heart. Please understand that much.
 

rukD2B

Bai Yang [♥] Fong T. Xiong
For those who don't wish to support GVP, if you can't help, then please, the least you can do is not hurt him and his supporters with your harsh words. To hear these words from your own race is more than daggers to the heart. Please understand that much.

True, sort of. Someone who is a VP supporter hurt me too
because I wasn't supporting VP. She did it with harsh words. But
anyhow, I think it's okay for us to speak our opinions, it's just,
yeah, some of us are a bit rough, I might be one, who knows.

Anyhow, you're wise. I think you're nice. LOLs. This topic should
be thrown away. It's all Anti-Laotian or Anti-Hmong as it seems
now. Wait, more like Anti-Each-Other. Oh well. This is just a post.
 

xxGREENxx

sarNie Adult
I am so ashamed at some of you people's comments...have no respect for your own kind. Making such comments without knowing the truth. I'm not saying I support the guy for his act, but I sure know not to say such stupid comments because I don't know what his true intentions were. This is the reason why Hmong people never get along or have a leader...they always like to pull each other's legs. Everyone was complaining why VP didn't do anything to help the people in the jungle, but when he had plan to do something but failed, they laugh at him and glad he was arrested. When will you people learn to be more mature? You all sit here and complain even when there are white people that support him. I am so ashamed of you.

i think you're right. i'm very disappointed at the hmong people that turns against him.
i think this is the time that we should all come together and support our kind. Gen. Vang Pao did this for a reason, and it was to protect the rights of his people.
many of the younger hmong generation make comments that seems really thoughtless, sorry if i offend anyone. I apreciate the variety of opinions, but i just want you guys to see that Gen. Vang Pao has done a lot for the Hmong people. And his actions in HISTORY has impact our lives NOW.
Respect is not about kissing one's feet. Just appreciate and acknowledge the fact that Gen. Vang Pao has lead us Hmong people this far, with the cooperation and support of the Hmong people too of course... and now it's up to us to decide where we want our future to be and how we want our history to be remember.


Versus00 i think ur posts are very wise!! it's good to know we still have true supporters and i hope we can continue to stand together.

cena thnx for all your time getting the informations!! it's given me alot of information about our history and Gen. Vang Pao. i appreciate his effort!!
 

champthong

sarNie Hatchling
"those who say they dont support the plan but yet they're willing to send money for support cus they support the leader.."

Now, isn't it weird...I think only we can understand it if it's us.
That's just like someone saying I don't support the terrorists, but I will wire money to their bank account haha... How can anyone understand that? If your aiding or supplying, then you are part of the crime...
 

champthong

sarNie Hatchling
Actually, Hmong doesn't really translate to Maew... here let me share:
FYI: "Hmong" is the same as "Meo", "Maio", "Maew". It is that when they migrated to a new world they want to be refer to as "Hmong," because it means "free people." However, in Asia "Hmong" are still refer to as "Meo." Same goes with "Mien," in Asia they are refer to as "Yao." Some people don't even know what "Hmong" is...they only know "Meo" etc.
 

lovebird_tmi

sarNie Hatchling

The only Hmong reputation we have is, we are a race of no union. Even at a time like this, we bicker among one another; instead of appreciating our history and leaders of the past, we point fingers and blame each other just to save our own butts so the world would not think different of us even if that means attacking our very own culture.

I am disappointed to read all of these comments. One thing the younger Hmong generation needs to remember is, you learn to appreciate your culture, your history, and your own people, milestones and mistakes included. No one culture is perfect. Before you begin saying something, you research it thoroughly. Before, I didn't understand as well but as I've matured, now 18, I have come to realize that the Hmong people are very disbanded and that is very sad.

Anti-hmong, I truly believe you are the most pathetic of them all. It's fine that you embrace another culture but is it so hard not to attack a culture you wish to disassociate with? You spend a whole lot of time bashing the Hmong culture you dearly hate, what for? No one is holding you back from entering a new culture but please, save yourself some respect and dignity, leave the Hmong culture alone.

For those who don't wish to support GVP, if you can't help, then please, the least you can do is not hurt him and his supporters with your harsh words. To hear these words from your own race is more than daggers to the heart. Please understand that much.


first off... Hmong is not a race, it's an ethnicity. Asian is a race. the closest thing i can compare it to is Jews and hispanics, it's an ethnicity, an origin not from any particular country, but a people.

second, just because someone does not condone the actions of GVP does not mean they have no pride their heritage. those are two very different things. and being 18 does not mean you're mature... being 60 does not mean your mature... being 15 does not necessarily make a person immature. it's all individual.

personally, i don't view any of the opinions here as being negative.. a lot of people are just off the bat defensive. i take it as those who don't know are asking questions, and those that have experienced the situations are teaching and sharing. if you can't understand that, maybe you have a reason to be sad. ignorance is not bliss, and knowledge does not make you all powerful. acceptance and understanding are key to getting along. what is very sad to me is that before we as HUMANS can accept one another, we have to use violence/hurt/anger/negativity.

my opinion, this was a last resort to help the SOME of the hmoob in laos, and i don't want to sound negative, but it's the ones that still believe they have a right to the country just because they settled there, those are the ones being persecuted. that by no means makes it right and something needs to be done to stop and prevent the tortures going on. but instead of sitting in front of a computer and bashing eachother, be productive. if in America, write to your legislature, organize peaceful rallies identifying the situation. INFORM and EDUCATE others to the atrocities. if you can't do any of these or something more productive to help the cause, don't sit here and preach and lecture. it only shows ignorance and arrogance.

i said it before and i'm gonna say it again. THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. i support stopping the torture, the abuse, the injustices. i DO NOT support the murdering of innocent people. you can interpret that anyway you want. an innocent life in the jungles of Laos or the innocent life of a child of a Pathet Lao in a daycare center in their federal building in Laos. both are HUMAN.

in the end, violence does not solve any problems, only creates more.

ceda_lee: i do appreciate you posting up the articles. i have not had a chance to search all sources of media. so i just want to say thank you for keeping us informed.

and i also just want to clear up to whoever it was that posted that those that are still in Thailand or Laos did so because they did not want to go to a different country like US/Australia/New Guinea/France. that is true in some aspect, but not true either. 1--the older generation couldn't handle mentally and physically another move, from Laos to Thailand during and after the war. therefore, the younger generation had to stay and provide for them, not really by choice, but by familial loyalty. 2--those that survived the trek from Laos to Thailand during and after the war had to provide proof in the Refugee camp regarding family history.. in paper documentation. do you realize how hard that is to do when you have no reading or writing skills? many tried to make it up at the registration into camps, but when you're scared for your life, in a foreign country, proving accurate information is quite difficult. and if a family realized later on that the documentation was incorrect, to change it would mean not being able to register to leave the camps when sponsors from different countries offered support. so many that did stay really didn't have a choice. i'm not saying that all of those that stayed were forced to, because there were those that didn't want to leave Thailand because they had grown accustomed to living in the camps already. just informing so you have the whole picture.. that's all

and another FYI-- in China TODAY, Hmong are still called Miao. They are okay with that. It is Hmong that live outside of China, who are decended from those that made the trek to Vietnam and Laos that consider that terminology derogatory, therefore, the term has since been deemed as derogatory outside of China. so to be poliitacally correct, when speaking to a Hmong person, do not call them Miao if you've already been corrected. it's only polite. :)

and thank you for reading... i'm quite long winded.
 

Sharona

sarNie Hatchling
Geeze, I don't want to sound mean, but if it is okay for everyone to state their own opinions openly about this issue
then I'll state mine as well.

Darvil:
Although it is good to remember atrocities and crimes against humanity, I don't think its a good idea to use these violent past to give oneself an excuse to support something like this. I think alot of us need to rise above it and not be too overwhelmed by it.
Exactly what violent past are you refferring to? Are you reffering to the Hmong persecution that is still happening today in Laos or the Vietnam War? I don't know exactly what you mean by "violent past," but I don't think General Vang Pao is holding much of a grudge on the past, more so the crimes against humanity that many of the Hmong people in the forests of Laos are facing. There are several Hmong people here in America who have families back in Laos who are STILL running for their lives because of the Vietnam War that is now supposed to be "a part of our past."

And also the statement about America not helping the Hmong people. I think America has done decent enough. I mean look at the large population of Hmong people in the US. How many more do we want? The whole hmong group living in SE Asia? Stop the violence there? How? landing American troops? How are you going to manage that? I mean it really is too much expectation from some people here.
Okay, so the Americans helped "some" of the Hmong people come to the US, but what about the rest; what happens to those who are in the forests? They, like the rest of the Hmong here in America were promised to be protected if the Lao communists would turn against them. What are the Americans doing about the harsh treatments that the Hmong are facing now? Um... nothing! You ask how they are going to stop the violence against the Hmong in Laos? Let's first ask ourselves this. What's the difference between the actions of Sadaam and the actions of the Laos government. Is there really a difference? Was Sadaam not executed for unjustly killing people? Was that not the reason the Americans sought Sadaam for? So America is playing world police. They are the all mighty ones who make the laws and decisions as to what is right and what is wrong? So it is okay for the Americans to use people and then abandon them so that

The problem is that American cannot absorb every disfranchised groups in the world. You want to talk about the Hmong people? Well what about all the groups in Burma? What about Africa? What about Latin and South America?
I don't know whether or not the Americans made any promises to the people of those countries/continents that you listed, but it is fact that the Hmong helped the Americans during the Vietnam War and it is fact that the Americans PROMISED to protect the Hmong if the Lao communists woud turn against the Hmong. How about making it more simple... The reason that the Americans aren't helping out the Hmong people who are now being neglected by their fellow American "friends" or groups in Burma and other countries who are suffering as well maybe that those countries aren't beneficial to America. Why Iraq? Of all the countries that America has chosen to help, why did they choose Iraq? Could it be the oil?

mai92:
My dad told me that maybe General Vang Pao did it on purpose so that he can get the Vietnamese to talk about the killing that they did to the Hmong people in the jungle.
I can't say whether your dad's explanation for Vang Pao's actions is correct or not, but I must say that his "terrorist" actions have
led the Americans to focus more on the Hmong people in the jungles of Laos. This is actually the first time I've seen the American
Press actually focus and talk about the Hmong in Laos. In my opinion, I don't see General Vang Pao as a terrorist, nor a war criminal like many have labeled him in the news. War criminal, heck if you are going to label General Vang Pao as a war criminal, then we might as all label everyone else who's ever been engaged in war a war criminal.

Chewy:
I know the General Vang Pao is a hot item ATM. We're not sure what's going on yet, but only the news on tv, newspaper and rumors I think it's great that we support each other thought hard time, but if some one violate the law do you still support them? i was shock about this news. He's trying to help the people back in Laos, is violent is going to solve it? No wonder there is no peace at all. Base on my experince in the Thailand camp, EVERYONE was giving the opportunity to come to the USA, but a lot of people back out! so if you ask me!...i DO NOT Feel bad for the people who back out and now that they see the hmong are successful in USA...they want to come....Also like Natty mention.....the Thai did let us stay on their land before we come to the USA. One of the thing i don't like about the Hmong Community is that........one event happen and there are like 1000 different stories. I think that's why everyone get different answer and feel differently about this issue.
I agree with you that those who chose not to come to the US are at their own fault, but the ones suffering in Laos are not the same as those in Thailand who chose not to come to the US. Those who are hiding in the jungles are those who could not escape to Thailand. They weren't given the opportunity that many of Hmong people here in the US were given. Let us not forget about them.

Also USA is been good to us. They gave us food, clothes, shelter and EDUCATION!!!! Can we have all these if we were back in Laos. What can we do in Laos if we were to go back. Plus it was not OURs from the beginning....that's why it's call LAOS!!!! Not HMONG... :rolleyes:
So what if the US has food, clothes, shelter, and education. Yea, I'm grateful that we are here in America and have been able to exercise our rights and explore the many opportunities that are available to us today. Is that a reason for us to be greedy and selfish and forget about those who could've had the same opportunities that we have today? Is it okay for the rest of us here in America living our "nice" lives to watch and do nothing about the Hmong genocide in the jungles of Laos. I think not!

So I guess my thoughts are just all over the place. What I'm trying to say is that if General Vang Pao's plan to overthrow the Laos government by killing millions of innocent people hold true, then of course he is making a huge mistake. There are other things that could've been done. What makes me angry is that the Americans arrested a man who "supposedly" is plotting to kill millions to overthrow a communist government, but on the other hand are doing nothing about a country who is continously killing the group of Hmong people who helped the Americans during the Vietnam War. It just seems like the Hmong people have been betrayed and made fools of by the Americans. Okay, so I need to stop speaking about the Americans as a whole, because I know there are some Americans who feel the American government is betraying the Hmong as well. So what if America and Laos have put their past behind them. They've totally forgotten about how the Hmong were involved in the war. I can somewhat understand how General Vang Pao feels. Of course I'm not speaking for him, but who wouldn't be mad after trying so hard to get the Americans to take some kind of action just to help the Hmong suffereing in Laos, and then see nothing come out of it. Maybe the Americans can't face the facts that they lost the Vietnam War. If the Hmong are such a burden to them, then they should've never asked for help from the Hmong in the first place. The Hmong people were very loyal to the Americans. They gave their lives up to help the Americans during the Vietnam War. What are the Americans doing now to pay respect. They didn't keep to their promise. The least they can do now is help stop the hatred and violence that many of the Hmong in the jungles of Laos are having to deal with. I feel so guilty living such a good life here in America and watching those in the jungles of Laos suffer like crazy. I think a lot more needs to be done... the U.N needs to wake up and take action and the US needs to straighten out their priorities.

Read this article --- From jungles to suburbs, warlord led Hmong struggle

"Vientiane, which denies any mistreatment of Hmong and says its resettlement of them in lowland villages gives better access to food, education and health care, was delighted by Vang Pao's arrest.

"This is the great news that Laos has waited for so long," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yong Chanhthalansy said."

Hmm... I wonder why General Vang Pao's arrest is such great news to Laos. Could it be that his arrest will allow them to more easily torture and annhilate the Hmong people? God... man I'm so P'Oed.

I think more trouble will only arise if General Vang Pao is thrown to jail for the rest of his life. I'm eager to follow and hear the outcome of this story...
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
Everyone's comments and thoughts are quite interesting...gotta get back to studying...I'll be doing some hardcore studying this week, but I'll be checking in and out on this forum...and if I can, I'll post up some updates...and things that I think are interesting...
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
I think this is interesting...haha...

>From Eric:
For those who care to read: My synopsis of Gen. Vang Pao.

Everyone has put in their two cents, expressed their sentiment or rage
against the current ALLEGATIONS towards General Vang Pao and eight/nine
others (depending on whichever article you read).

Here's my synopsis of the events to come:

1. General Vang Pao WILL NOT get convicted, if it even goes to trial and
miraculously he does get convicted of planning a coup against the Laos
government, he's going to get a presidential pardon. HE WILL NOT go to
prison. It is political sabotage to do such a thing. Vang Pao is an icon
and will remain so in American history. As well, it is an election year,
and Bush is "handing over the torch", he's going to pardon Vang Pao because
of all his contributions and that of the Hmong community during the Vietnam
War, ALSO, it's politically right to do so, to regain the Hmong communities
confidence (votes).... AND most importantly Vang Pao will be pardoned as a
final "THERE YOU GO HMONG PEOPLE, WE NO LONGER OWE YOU ANYTHING, WE
PARDONED YOUR LEADER".

2. Vang Pao's actions have no direct effects for American security.
Therefore, it is a miniscule issue. Consider, Paris Hilton and her "DRUNK
DRIVING" is a bigger issue and consumes more news coverage. Is Paris going
to jail? Is she not? Vang Pao's "issue" barely gets coverage, if any, it's
in the middle or back of the papers.

POSITIVES ABOUT THE FUTURE BECAUSE OF VANG PAO'S ACTIONS:

1. Vang Pao's actions have stirred up feelings and emotions in the public.
Many feelings which were buried deep within all of us have surfaced in
light of the recent incident. In Laos, the Hmong people are considered a
plague, a disease to be exterminated. In America, though not publicly
stated, the Hmong are considered good for nothing refugees, remnants of a
"mistaken war". People who merely occupy space. This incident is going to
open the eyes of the public to notice the Hmong people, in this country and
everywhere else. The public, AT FIRST will blame Vang Pao and call him a
"terrorist" but they will come to realize that in reality, he is acting
against tyranny and genocide of his people, he is pursuing freedom for his
people, even by means of war. The U.S. should know this all too well, the
U.S. existence is ony possible because of war, and paraphrased from the
Declaration of Independence, "when any government becomes destructive of
these ends (freedom of religion, speech, news, press, pursuit of happiness)
it is the job, the obligation of the people to rise up against such
tyranny"....

2. Though the U.S. government may portray a facade to be against Vang Pao
and his "act of terrorism" they really don't care and in fact wouldn't mind
if he were successful in a coup. Because it's a given that the Hmong people
WILL NOT implement a communist government because of its history of
oppressing the Hmong people. If the Hmong people were able to eradicate the
communist regime and chartered a new government there, it would be a much
easier task for the U.S. government to convert the "anti-communist Hmong
country" to their side for future uses.

RELATING THIS "HMONG INCIDENT" WITH HISTORY

1. As we all know, at a point of time in history African Americans were
made slaves here in the U.S. African Americans were slaves all the way from
the time of the original colonies from 17th century until the 18th century,
over a hundred years. We ask ourselves today, there were so many of them
and they were controlled by a few "masters"... Why is that so? How come
they didn't rebel, demand their freedom? Slaves greatly outnumbered the
slaveowners on the plantations, but why? Why didn't they rebel? Because of
their mentality, they grew up and live in a society where all they knew was
to be a slave. They did not become aware and conscious of their state of
being, only with time did they start to see the injustice, hate the
injustice and DEMAND the end of the injustice... When slaves started
demanding their freedom, their RIGHT to be a HUMAN and not property, white
society took notice and labeled them savages, unfit for society. It took
over another 100 years after being "freed", formation of NAACP, Black
Panther, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Rosa Parks for African
Americans to recieve the privilages as whites (supposedly)...

This relates and will relate with Hmong history in that the "white man" has
always oppressed the "colored man" and when that group has become conscious
of their subjugation, the white man will move on to the next colored group
that is unaware.

THE CONCLUSION:

This "INCIDENT" with Vang Pao is merely the beginning, the SPARK that was
needed, the fire to awaken the beast.

General Vang Pao WILL NOT be the one obtain a country for the Hmong people.
He is brave, he is courageous, but with all due respect, he is old, he is
outdated. What General Vang Pao has done is set the stepping stone for his
successor, and I'm sure he knew that.

THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING!

---------------------------

HMOOB LOVE!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is me, CEDA...feel free to provide your own synopsis of what will happen to GVP...I know some of you are saying that we shouldn't say before knowing both sides...but I know many of you, including myself, are already thinking of what will happened to GVP...as much as we try to hold back from not thinking too far ahead, this incident has affect us very deeply.
 
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