General Vang Pao Arrested????

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
June 10, 2007

Hmong community reacts with alarm to charges against Vang Pao
by Toni Randolph, Minnesota Public Radio,
Greta Cunningham, Minnesota Public Radio
June 5, 2007

Former Minnesota U.S. Attorney Tom Heffelfinger says he's working with members of the Hmong community as they begin to form a legal team for Gen. Vang Pao. Pao and eight others were indicted by federal authorities Monday on charges they conspired to topple the government in Laos.

St. Paul, Minn. — Pao has been in the United States for about 30 years, and even though he's no longer a military leader, he's still an important figure in Hmong history in America.

When the CIA needed help fighting Communists during the Vietnam War, it recruited Hmong soldiers to carry on a secret campaign. Those soldiers were led by Gen. Vang Pao.

When the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam, Pao became one of the first Hmong refugees to relocate to the United States in the mid-1970s. Thousands of people followed him, many of them settling in St. Paul, which has the largest population of Hmong in the United States.
Larger view
Tom Heffelfinger

Pao himself has homes in both St. Paul and California. Now he is under arrest -- and the news has hit the Hmong community hard. Ilene Her, director of the Council on Asian-Pacific Minnesotans, likens Pao to the leader of a nation.

"I think he's huge. For my parents' generation, he was the first political leader, as a George Washington or maybe a Julius Caesar, who is more of a military leader," says Her. "I think he's really huge, that he has influence sort of over their lives and their destiny of coming to America.

Her describes Pao as "very charismatic." Even in America, she says Pao has great influence over many people. He's not an elected official, but he's sometimes treated ike one. His appearances in St. Paul draw huge crowds. He gets reserved seating at community events, like the New Year festival.

Pao's followers remain devoted, including some of his former soldiers. The late father of St. Paul community activist Va-Megn Thoj served as a captain under Pao during the secret war.

"The people who served under him were loyal. He was an effective military commander because of the loyalty he had from his soldiers," says Thoj. "My dad was like that, otherwise he wouldn't have been part of his army."

For some soldiers and other supporters, that loyalty translated into donations to an organization whose cause was to overthrow the Communist government of Laos.
"For my parents' generation, [Vang Pao] was the first political leader, as a George Washington or maybe a Julius Caesar, who is more of a military leader."
- Ilene Her, Council on Asian-Pacific Minnesotans

Pao has long spoken of returning to his homeland, although in 2003, he declared an end to his military efforts to reclaim Laos. While the older members of the Hmong community may hold him in high esteem, Va-Megn Thoj says Pao is not universally liked.

"I'm like a lot of the younger generation, feel ambivalent about his role. I think he was really an effective military leader that was needed during that era," says Thoj. "But at the same time, he has shortcomings as a political leader. By default he also became a political leader, but he was not as effective as a political leader."

Still, Thoj says he respects Pao's contribution to Hmong history.

That sentiment is shared by Chia Vang, a history professor at the University of Wisconsin, who says Pao's arrest is tragic for all Hmong people, regardless of how they feel about the general.

"It's a huge distraction. Friends and colleagues are e-mailing across the country wondering how to digest this," says Vang.

Vang says Pao is a hero to many Hmong people because he represents the freedoms they have today.

Vang Pao has been a source of controversy elsewhere.

In April, a dispute erupted in Madison, Wisconsin, over a proposal to name a new elementary school after him, a move intended to honor the area's large Hmong population. Dissenters said a school should not bear the name of a figure with such a violent history.

In 2002, the city of Madison dropped a plan to name a park in his honor after a University of Wisconsin-Madison professor cited numerous published sources alleging that Vang Pao had ordered executions of his own followers, of enemy prisoners of war and of his political enemies.

Authorities in California acted against Pao and the others because weapons shipments were set to begin this month to areas in Thailand along the Laotian border.

The buildup was in preparation for a coordinated set of mercenary attacks that investigators said were designed to kill communist officials and reduce government buildings to rubble, according to a criminal complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Sacramento.

No actual weapons were in the pipeline, only the samples the undercover agent showed Gen. Vang Pao and former California National Guard Lt. Col. Harrison Ulrich Jack, a 1968 West Point graduate and Vietnam War veteran.

The defendants acted through the Lao liberation movement known as Neo Hom, led in the U.S. by Vang Pao. It conducted extensive fundraising, directed surveillance operations and organized a force of insurgent troops within Laos, according to the complaint.

As recently as May, people acting on behalf of the committee were gathering intelligence about military installations and government buildings in the Laotian capital of Vientiane, according to prosecutors.

The defendants had gone so far as to issue "an operations plan" to a contractor who was to conduct a military strike in the city and reduce government buildings to rubble, the complaint alleged.

(The Associated Press contributed to this report)
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
From Laos:

Laos says it will monitor the Vang Pao case closely and that the case will not affect Laos-US relations in any way.


Mr. Yong Chanthalangsy, Laos Foreign Ministry’s spokesperson, said to VOA that Laos and US already enjoy good relations and co-operation between the two countries has steadily expanded in many areas.

Mr. Chanthalangsy said The US embassy in Vientiane has informed Laos about the press release of the U.S. Department of Justice regarding the arrest of General Vang Pao and nine other suspects in the case. He said all the suspects are U.S. citizens and they have violated American laws, not Lao laws.

In some earlier reports, Lao officials were quoted as saying it was great news for Laos. Although former Gen Vang Pao, who is now 77, had left the country more than 3 decades ago, but Lao official still blame him for many of the problems, including the issue of the Hmong refugees at Ban Houai Nam Khao, Khao Kho District, in Thailand’s Phetchabun province.

Mr. Chanthalangsy said it’s too early to draw any conclusion about this case, because for now it’s just a charge, not a verdict yet.

The Lao Foreign Ministry spokesman also told VOA’s Bangkok stringer that his government closely monitor the Vang Pao case to see how it will turn out and, in the meantime, it will launch a campaign to inform the Hmong community in Laos, so as to prevent more Hmongs from fleeing to Thailand.
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
Again...sorry for the long post, BUT RELEVANT info...I feel that those who are just going back in forth, maybe cause you feel or think that you know enough about this issue to formulate solid arguments, but aren't really...I just wanna say that, it doesn't hurt to further educate yourself...cause I too feel like I never know enough...

Hmong sense new betrayal
Arrests stir memory of 1970s U.S. abandonment after Vietnam War.
By Stephen Magagnini - Bee Staff Writer

Published 12:00 am PDT Sunday, June 10, 2007
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A1


The hopes, dreams, achievements and fears of America's Hmong surfaced at a Sacramento banquet Thursday night -- along with a sense that the U.S. government, their greatest benefactor, had betrayed them again.

The man who guided the Hmong journey from the mountains and jungles of Laos to a new life of opportunity in America, Gen. Vang Pao, sits in the Sacramento County jail on charges of plotting a violent overthrow of communist Laos.

Vang, 77, is one of 10 men arrested and charged in Sacramento federal court last week with plotting a full-scale coup against Laos that would have included AK-47 assault rifles, ground-to-air Stinger missiles, anti-tank weapons and a mercenary army. The older members of the alleged conspiracy include Hmong men -- Laotian mountain tribesmen -- who followed Vang Pao as he waged war under the CIA's direction against Southeast Asian communists between 1961 and 1975.

Vang, 77, has survived a stroke and heart bypass surgery in recent years and suffers from diabetes and high cholesterol. But many still consider him the heart and soul of America's 250,000 Hmong and the thousands of others still trapped in Thailand and the jungles of Laos, where Amnesty International reports they have been assaulted and murdered by the Laotian military.

At the Hmong Women's Heritage Association's Pathfinder Banquet at the Sacramento Radisson, national leaders from Sacramento to Minnesota spoke of their debt to Vang, who in 1961 was recruited by the CIA to lead a secret jungle army against the communist Pathet Lao and Vietnamese army.

As a boy, Vang had joined the French to fight the Japanese during World War II and later the North Vietnamese. He rose through the ranks in the Lao Royal Army.

During the Vietnam War he became legendary as a brilliant, often ruthless field commander who reportedly couldn't be killed by bullets and had the unqualified loyalty of a guerrilla army of 40,000.

The Hmong grew famous for rescuing U.S. pilots shot down along the Ho Chi Minh trail; according to one account, Vang sacrificed dozens of Hmong warriors to pull two U.S. pilots to safety. Vang's forces are credited with battling an army of 70,000 North Vietnamese to a draw in northern Laos.

"The Hmong, by their courage and guerrilla effectiveness, did a job it would have taken thousands of U.S. troops to do," former CIA Director William Colby told The Bee in 1995. He called Vang "a hero if there were any heroes in that war."

But by 1973, the U.S. was pulling out of Vietnam, leaving tens of thousands of Hmong to fend for themselves.

The United States had promised, "if we win, you win with us, and if we lose, we'll take care of you," said Carl Bernard, a former Army Special Forces leader. If the Hmong hadn't joined the CIA's effort, "they'd still be there on top of their hillsides and they'd be a helluva lot better off," Bernard said.

An estimated 100,000 Hmong were killed in the war and in the retribution exacted after the communist victory in 1975.

Vang was airlifted by U.S. forces out of Long Tieng, his secret air base in Laos, and ultimately made his way to America. Thousands of other Hmong fled through the jungle on foot and crossed into Thailand, where they were crowded into squalid refugee camps.

Thousands more remained in Laos. Most have gone on to live peacefully under the communist regime. But several thousand remain hidden in the Laotian jungle, fearing death or retaliation for their role in the resistance.

In America, Vang became the champion of Hmong worldwide, helping tens of thousands emigrate to the United States, France and Australia, while fueling hopes that one day the Hmong would be able to safely return to their mountain villages.

May Ying Ly, whose father fought with Vang's army, is now executive director of Sacramento's Hmong Women's Heritage Association. Ly said Hmong -- particularly those born in Laos and the Thai camps -- "see VP as a savior, representing our dreams."

"Whatever trouble he's in," she said, "he's still our leader ... I have to admire the guy if he's willing to go down for the cause."

Maybe there's no other way, Ly said, to call attention to the plight of the Hmong still trapped in the Laotian jungles.

To some, the arrest of Vang and his associates represents a second betrayal by the United States, which in the eyes of many abandoned the Hmong in Laos.

Xia Kao Vang, director of Sacramento Lao Family Community Inc., said he can't sleep because he's so worried about what he sees as the U.S. government's sudden change of heart.

"The people in the jungle are pleading for VP to help them, and the U.S. was helping the general from 1978 to 1988, giving him advice on how to overthrow the Laos government," he said.

Tim Fong, director of Asian American studies at California State University, Sacramento, compared the alleged Hmong plot to the Bay of Pigs invasion -- the failed 1961 assault on Cuba by armed Cuban exiles that was financed and planned by the CIA.

"The CIA was involved with hiring the Hmong in Laos from the very beginning," Fong said. "Something's wrong here."

Laura Leonelli, director of the Southeast Asian Assistance Center in Sacramento, questioned the timing of the federal sting operation.

"They've known these guys for 30 years -- why now? We (the U.S. government) can go in and invade a country and depose the government, but God forbid anybody else should try it."

Starting in Santa Ana in 1977, Vang established a network of Lao Family Community centers designed to help Hmong refugees, many of them illiterate. Today, there are eight centers in Minnesota, Wisconsin and California, including one in Sacramento, which opened in 1982.

Since 2000, the Lao Family network has raised more than $40 million through service fees, government grants and donations, according to federal tax forms. Most of the funds have been spent on services such as English tutoring, job training and health care, forms show.

But over the years, Vang's fundraising also has been linked to Hmong rebels in Laos.

Court documents allege Vang was the leader of Neo Hom, also known as the United Lao National Liberation Front. He and his alleged co-conspirators "operated within the general scope" of Neo Hom, according to the documents.

According to defense lawyers for some of the accused, those arrested were trying to help the Hmong in Laos when they attempted to negotiate the purchase of military arms and recruit Army Special Forces and Navy SEALs veterans to fight as mercenaries in an invasion.

But the group unwittingly was negotiating with an undercover agent of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, according to the prosecution's court papers. According to the agent, the co-conspirators claimed to have access to $9.8 million for the purchase of artillery and a mercenary army.

If Vang did play a leading role in the plot, as prosecutors allege, it would run counter to the "New Doctrine" speech he and oldest son Cha Vang gave in St. Paul, Minn., in November 2003.

Vang shocked many Hmong when, according to the national publication Hmong Today, he declared, "It is time to let the past stay in the history books, and to let a new era of peace, prosperity and reconciliation return to Laos."

The Lao Veterans of America, representing 75,000 Hmong, broke with Vang over the speech. "At that point he lost all credibility with his veterans," said the group's Washington director, Phil Smith.

For some, the current allegations serve as proof he never really gave up on the quest for a triumphant return to Laos.

"He has been talking about this from the get-go," said Wameng Moua, 36, the editor of Hmong Today. "He's never really let down from the quixotic dream of finding the (Hmong) homeland."

Over the years, Vang sold promissory notes to thousands of Hmong in exchange for commissions and appointments in Laos when he reclaimed the country.

"For a long time, people just thought he was taking money for taking money, but I guess he's had the big plan all along if the charges are true," Moua said.

Moua said Vang's influence has waned as a new generation of Hmong have come of age in America. About three-quarters of America's 250,000 Hmong are under age 25.

But at Thursday's banquet, Hmong of all ages defended Vang.

"I think he was just trying to help the Hmong people," said Susan Vang, 18, a valedictorian at Burbank High in Sacramento. "The U.S. government told us they'd bring us over and they just left (some of) us there."

Nha Lue Vang, in his mid-50s, is the first Hmong in Sacramento to earn a doctoral degree. "He's our father, our leader, our hero," Lue Vang said. "Because of him, we're alive. If not for him, I wouldn't be here with my doctorate."

Lue Vang called the arrests "very perplexing for the Hmong -- we were always against communism. However, because of 9/11, a lot of things changed."

The progress Hmong have made after three decades in America was embodied Thursday night by the nation's highest-ranking Hmong elected official, Minnesota state Sen. Mee Moua.

Moua spoke of her odyssey from her mountain village in northern Laos to a Thai refugee camp.

She detailed the racism she and her family faced when they arrived in the United States, including the hurled epithets and human waste left on her porch, and how as a child she wanted to chase three assailants with her aluminum T-ball bat. Instead, her mother told her, "go to college and come back and be their boss."

Moua said she looks forward to the day when a Hmong American is the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft, heads a Fortune 500 company and is elected president.

"As a community we are all equally shocked (by the arrests), feeling very vulnerable, and we are searching for answers," she said.

But Moua reminded the crowd that every Hmong American is entitled to due process.

"This is the time for all of us to keep in mind that we are all one family and one community," she said to a standing ovation. "Let's not allow this situation to divide us or in any way erase our achievements and successes in this country over the last 32 years."
 

lovebird_tmi

sarNie Hatchling
again, ceda_lee, thanks for the updates.

i will be the first to admit, i came in charging... but now i've digested and thought through much of the information and opinions... i'm kinda glad something like this happened... it'll put more of a spot light on what is going on in Laos. i think that's the real tragedy about these allegations.

the other thing i find sad... this is no longer in the televised news, only in local CA and MN papers and on the net. where are those reporters on live TV? where are the major TV networks?
 

suesan

sarNie Egg
again, ceda_lee, thanks for the updates.

i will be the first to admit, i came in charging... but now i've digested and thought through much of the information and opinions... i'm kinda glad something like this happened... it'll put more of a spot light on what is going on in Laos. i think that's the real tragedy about these allegations.

the other thing i find sad... this is no longer in the televised news, only in local CA and MN papers and on the net. where are those reporters on live TV? where are the major TV networks?

I agree with you, where is all the major tv network...remember when Chai Vang killed those people while going on a deer hunting trip..it was all over the world...I really like to see this on national news to prove that the American peole is really betrayed our hmong people...i think one reason that they didn't air on national news is because fo embarrasment and they didn't want the world to know their true color and that they are coward who depend on the hmong people during the Vietman War....I guess the white people didn't care about how we feel the the tragedy, how bad our people are being torture back in laos, and why general vang pao did what he did...All they care about is their stupid laws...Isn't that sad....they have no feelings at all....We love our leader as much they love their...and will support our leader as much they support their....
 

exp0

sarNie Juvenile
I agree with you, where is all the major tv network...remember when Chai Vang killed those people while going on a deer hunting trip..it was all over the world...I really like to see this on national news to prove that the American peole is really betrayed our hmong people...i think one reason that they didn't air on national news is because fo embarrasment and they didn't want the world to know their true color and that they are coward who depend on the hmong people during the Vietman War....I guess the white people didn't care about how we feel the the tragedy, how bad our people are being torture back in laos, and why general vang pao did what he did...All they care about is their stupid laws...Isn't that sad....they have no feelings at all....We love our leader as much they love their...and will support our leader as much they support their....
So, where are you living in right now? US if I'm correct? If yes, do you support Bush? he's our leader isn't he. I know I don't and also other US citizens do not.
 

natty

Chubs
I agree with you, where is all the major tv network...remember when Chai Vang killed those people while going on a deer hunting trip..it was all over the world...I really like to see this on national news to prove that the American peole is really betrayed our hmong people...i think one reason that they didn't air on national news is because fo embarrasment and they didn't want the world to know their true color and that they are coward who depend on the hmong people during the Vietman War....I guess the white people didn't care about how we feel the the tragedy, how bad our people are being torture back in laos, and why general vang pao did what he did...All they care about is their stupid laws...Isn't that sad....they have no feelings at all....We love our leader as much they love their...and will support our leader as much they support their....

laws are written for a reason.. of course WE care about it. Aren't YOU living here in America at the moment protected by those stupid laws? Americans didnt only do wrong to hmongs but they did it to the Laos too! they abandon the laos people after dropping hundreds of bombs. Those bombs are still there and still going off. So it's not only you. Look pass your backyard to the world around you, don't think you're the ONLY victim.

and as expo said not all americans support their leader. and bush is as much a leader to you since you are living in this country's soil, eating this country's food, depending on this country's education to better yourself.
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
credit: legendpictures

These lyrics are pretty deep. Just wanted to share the Hmong part.

kuv yeej paub hais tias nej cov laus saib tsis taus cov hluas zoo ib yam li kuv tus ntawm no, vim kuv tsis paub kev cai kuv tsuas yog txawj haus thiab txawj no,
tab sis kuv ob lub qhov muag yeej pom, hmoob txoj kev tus siab, hmoob txoj kev txom nyem, tim lub teb chaws mis cas no peb cov hluas thiaj txawj siab phem, vim peb tsis txawj sib hlub, peb cov tub tsis laib faus niam thiab txim tsam yog niam thiab txiv faus tub, thov neb cov hmoob church txhob ntsai peb cov hmoob ntseeg dab, txawm neb tsis khaws hmoob cev cais los, thov kom neb txawj xav yog xav muab hais kom lus tag txawm neb ntseeg dab tsis los peb tseem sawv daws yog hmoob ib yam, twb yog muaj txoj hmoo ntuj thiaj yug peb los ua ib pab hmoob, yog neb ntshai tsam muab ib hnub peb cov hmoob yuav tus noob, cev coom tes sib pab kom ntiaj teb pom tias peb yog ib pab hmoob qhab nab
 

anti-hmong

sarNie Hatchling
laws are written for a reason.. of course WE care about it. Aren't YOU living here in America at the moment protected by those stupid laws? Americans didnt only do wrong to hmongs but they did it to the Laos too! they abandon the laos people after dropping hundreds of bombs. Those bombs are still there and still going off. So it's not only you. Look pass your backyard to the world around you, don't think you're the ONLY victim.

and as expo said not all americans support their leader. and bush is as much a leader to you since you are living in this country's soil, eating this country's food, depending on this country's education to better yourself.
RIGHT ON NATTY!!! =)

hmongs and their holier than thou attitude...*gags*
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
"hmongs and their holier than thou attitude...*gags*"

Why do you always assume all Hmongs are alike...damn, whoever those Hmong are that screwed you up did a pretty good job at labeling the rest of us bad huh?

And, no I am not holier than thou...I think I'm pretty average ^_^
 

natty

Chubs
lol ceda.. i think anti got that from "we hmongs must stick together!" therefore one must represent the others lol..
 

ceda_lee

sarNie OldFart
Natty: Out of topic...

Is Saeng Soon worth watching? I mean...you're active at that forum...I stopped at epi 11...when finals are over with I'm gonna go rent a lot of videos, instead of downloading them cause they take too long...
 

natty

Chubs
haha why didn't you ask me in it's own thread?!?! lol but ok i'll answer here.. yeah it's pretty good.. totally got me teething! and it's getting even better now.. lol..
 

anti-hmong

sarNie Hatchling
"hmongs and their holier than thou attitude...*gags*"

Why do you always assume all Hmongs are alike...damn, whoever those Hmong are that screwed you up did a pretty good job at labeling the rest of us bad huh?

And, no I am not holier than thou...I think I'm pretty average ^_^
i'm not assuming...it's been presented
 

snow

sarNie Egg
i'm not assuming...it's been presented
anti-hmong,

I have some questions for you and sorry if this is off topic. I just want to ask you some simple questions since I don’t know too much about you. No need to be mad or anything, I’m just trying to understand the reasons behind your nick. Your nick says it all, you simply despite (hate) the Hmong. Here goes my first question, what is your nationality? Please do sure if you don’t mind. If you are not Hmong, do you think your nationality is better than the Hmong and why? What have the Hmong people done to you that you have such grudge against them? If you hate the Hmong so much as you said, why are you always posting in the Hmong forum? Last question, do you realize that by bashing the Hmong, you are hurting everyone whether they are good people or not.

I would really appreciate if you answer these questions for me. Hopefully it will help explain your nick. Peace out!
 

JaM

1TYM hwaiting!
Anti-hmong, you need to make a FAQ thread about yourself as I've seen these questions being asked several times over my year(s?) here at sarnworld. :lol:
 

Muddie Murda

smile...
Anti-hmong, you need to make a FAQ thread about yourself as I've seen these questions being asked several times over my year(s?) here at sarnworld. :lol:
LOL I know right? But if they really want to know, they'll do their research. The answers are all scattered around this forum.
 

natty

Chubs
LOL I know right? But if they really want to know, they'll do their research. The answers are all scattered around this forum.

lol some people just don't know how to read muddie.


anyways.. anti-hmong's ethnicity isn't better then anyone else. most of them just think they are.
 
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