Question on the King of Thailand

marduk

Sarnie Clown!
I read this article on Yahoo today. If you feel the inclination, then give it a read. I personally find it ridiculous that the Professor is in trouble for asking that question. As the end of the article stated, I think the institution of education is in serious jeopardy in Thailand when you don't allow students to criticize and analyze.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070813/lf_nm/..._lesemajeste_dc

As for the questions he asked, I think we should talk about it. I would like to hear people's opinions as I personally feel his worship is on a cult level. I don't care if someone else reveres him. I wouldn't make fun of them. But to not have the freedom to say any bad thing about someone is completely backwards in my opinion. Anyway, here are some of the questions...

"Do you think the monarchy is necessary for Thai society? How should it adapt to a democratic system? Please debate."

"How does the yellow shirt fever reflect problems in Thai society? Are they problems that need to be tackled? If so, how?"
 

noungning

Heartless
I personally think that the monarchy is necessary for the thai society. I see an example from the coup that has happened last year. Without the monarch, the previous prime minister would have never been removed from his position. Further corruption, although I'm not denying current corruptions in Thailand. But I don't think it's going to be a simple task to stop all at once.

Same goes for the president of the usa, if this country had a monarch, do you think the president will still be allowed to send more troops to die "to save other's country"?

How should the monarch adapt to democracy...People will have the right to vote for who they want to lead their territory, but when it is necessary for a higher level to care for them, then the higher level should come in.

I don't think the yellow shirt fever has anything to do or reflect the problems of thai society. The yellow shirt is just a symbol, it's a symbol of love and respect they have for their king. Every monday, people wears yellow to honor their king.

This question maybe asked because the King has asked for peace and cooperation of one another. For the citizens of the country to consider each other as siblings and not kill each other like what is happening down south of Thailand at the moment.

*************

As for the article and professor, it's true everyone should have the right to debate, but it's not the usa. Freedom of speech in Thailand is limited so I don't think it's even called "freedom of speech". You can't even debate much about the political stance, and this is reaching beyond that. I think that instability with what's going on with the whole country gets everyone a little nervous when it comes to debating. They don't know who is for or against the royalty or the government. This can stir a bunch of controversy and cause more bombings and hatred to occur.

It is a cultural thing, and I don't think anyone can test it. You have a majority for the lese majeste act, and you probably have 2% fighting to have freedom of speech...I don't think it'd ever be fair, but it's their law and what they've lived with for years.
 

marduk

Sarnie Clown!
I gotta run so I don't have time to write more. However, regarding the idea of Thailand "not being the usa" therefore, we shouldn't apply our thinking to them, I have this to say. If their society was working, then there would be no need at all for us to criticize them. However, as is evident from all the coups that have occurred over the previous years in Thailand, it does not exactly have a stable society. In other words, something is obvious wrong with the structural stability of Thai society. I bring this article out because I think this is one of the issues that is plaguing Thai society. You want your population to be educated so that they can recognize when something is wrong with society. You don't want everyone following like sheep. That's what happened with World War 2 and the Nazis. No one realized they were going down a bad path until it was too late.

I'm not saying Thai people are like the Nazis, but it is important for a society to be open to criticism. When you stifle criticism of anything at all, you deny that society the ability to improve itself. Hence the breakdown in civil order. I personally think education is very important for a successful society and one of the important components of that is to have an open forum where any ideas can be debated. True, you don't always have to agree with it, but it should be allowed to be stated.

I have some other things I want to write about the Yellow Shirt "Fever" and the role of the monarchy, but that will have to be saved for later.

I really hope to hear from more of you.
 

noungning

Heartless
The reminds me, education isn't really anything Thailand. It's all about connection. True education is VERY important [as Tim almost killed me because this debate haha], but in Thailand it only means so much... You're likely to make it further in life if you become a sucessful actor...then try to get your studies and become something. Recognition doesn't just come with a degree in Thailand. Nepotism and favoritism get you places. And this is likely why the rich gets richer while the poors gets poorer.
 

CTR

The Realist guy here period
Noungning check this out:

Z-Hot ft. Zero - From the Deepest Corner
http://www.mediafire.com/?ctxe0hbhbyu


I know what you're talking about when you've said the rich keep getting richer while the poor are abandoned. That is what I hate about my people. If you're born rich then you'll probably be rich and vice versa. It is called "elitism."


Marduk in a perfect world, everyone would be democratic. However, we must understand that we live in a diverse world with different ways of thinking. Your way might world here but might not work else where. We (the US) have had our fair share of controversy stemming from corporate scandals, political scandals, religious fundamentalism, etc. Education is very important like you've said but we (the US) is ranked 26th in the world as of right now. Remembered, George Washington warned us of committing to political parties. The US system is not without its faults as well. .... " Interest groups....Lobbying groups...."
 

marduk

Sarnie Clown!
Haha, I'm not here to defend the U.S. or any other nation. True, the quality of education nor the significance does not mean much. A friend of mine pointed this out to me when he told me he should've just stayed in Thailand instead of coming to the U.S. to the study. He realizes how important it is to have that social network by just being in Thailand.

Again though, I feel you guys might miss my point. The quality of education isn't important nor is it important what you're striving to become. Ning, you point out how you can get further by becoming an actor. Yeah, that's probably true. But I'm not concerned with that. I'm more worried about what Thailand is as a society than what people can do individually. Isn't it important to have a society where the country does censor a certain point of view? When the U.S. was going through the anti-Communist age, I would also have a problem if they censor Communist teaching. I would also have a problem if they disallowed the teachings of evolution, history of Islam, and anything else that people might think is "detrimental" to society. Also remember that there's a difference between propoganda and preaching as opposed to just open debates. A point of view can be presented as long as it's not trying to be forced upon students. As an example, I'm a democrat and I've been in classes where the prof was really bashing on Bush and trying to push their views by attacking students for voting for Bush. Now I personally don't like Bush but I don't believe that's right for you to push those views on someone, especially in an academic setting.

The whole thing about Thailand is that the right to express yourself should be a universal right. I hear that argument a lot about how the U.S. shouldn't push its view on others. I completely understand that premise. For example, look at Singapore. It's one of the most diverse countries in the world while at the same time, it has managed to keep relatively peaceful by controlling it's diverse ethnic groups well. A lot of political scientists have tried to study that model to see how it can be applied to other countries but it's hard to do that because you can't apply something about a country to another. However, I'm talking about certain cases and ideas that should be freely available to everyone for a society to function. Many have also stated how our definition of human rights should not be applied to women in the middle east since it's a different society. I also have a problem with that. There are secular laws and there are religious laws. We have to establish a separation between the two. In regards to secular laws, it has to be something that's applicable to everyone. If you allow certain men to enjoy certain rights, then by the definition of rights, it should be applicable to other women because you can't just say women aren't allowed that because they're "different." About the talk about the King - if you're encouraged to be a "progressive" society and you want education to be a priority, then it should be ok to openly tackle any subjects, including the King. That's what I find very hypocritical about Thailand. It talks about being a world power and bettering itself while at the same time, it shuts down it's imagination in certain areas. By censoring talk, that is shutting down imagination.

Again, these are my views and what I believe to be true. Continue to add what you guys think. But yah, I agree with both of you, but I think we're not talking about the same things.
 

darvil

sarNie Adult
At a certain point in my life, I would have agreed with ning, but after living here in the US for a while, I've started changing my opinion.

A few years ago I started watching Cspan religiously every single day and it has been really enlightening for me.

I don't want to talk too much about semantics like whether Thailand is really a democratic country or not blah blah. I think the questions the professor posed is valid. I would dare venture to say that most people in Thailand would say the Monarchy is necessary including the students who were suppose to think about it. Wouldn't that actually be a positive reenforcement if you think about it? But because there is a tiny risk of leaking some bad comments they have totally shut down a valid conversation.

I have now started to think that alot of the politicians and goverment officials have used this law or belief system to gain advantages in their career. These guys jumping on everyone and everything and frankly sometimes borderline ridiculousness in order to defend the King.

In the article it mentions that the King pardoned the man who was convicted for 10 years. Now doesn't that seems like the King himself doesn't like this kind of treatment? Does anyone even consult with the King on what he wants or do everyone just get offended for the King himself? I'm starting to feel that it is becoming more and more the latter. How much political advantage would you gain by being overly protected of the King? I'll bet it'll be alot, almost like becoming a hero for the righteous. How would someone in a position like the King react to it? I mean just seeing how he pardoned the man told me that he is against these over zealousness.

There definately should be room to talk about this kind of thing and I think the best place would be the University where this should of thing should happen.

But it is Thailand, and thats a way it is. I'm just a foreigner so my opinion don't count. Its up to the Thais to change their society.

As for the comment about how Thailand favors connections, I think we need to be fair and mention that it is like that EVERYWHERE in the world. Perhaps the degree of corruption maybe higher in Thailand (my opinion is Asia in general is higher due to the loyalty in family) but comon we should have a global perceptive on this.

Saying all that, I think that SE Asia in general is moving in a good direction. I guess we can't expect too quick a change yet.

I'm definately crossing my fingers on the future as there is a good chance of me going back there oneday and some more positive changes would be good for me.
 

noungning

Heartless
As for the comment about how Thailand favors connections, I think we need to be fair and mention that it is like that EVERYWHERE in the world.
yeah i guess i should've elaborated that it does happen everywhere.
 

CTR

The Realist guy here period
An open society is not necessarily the best case. Let us look at the US model. We have free speech, assembly,
petition, religion, and press. Our society (in the US) is just as worse in treating women. Look at TV,
people are parade around like sexy objects. Society has rules because people has never been able to govern themselves that is why government was form in the first place. The US, we have democracy but yet we have the highest murder rates,suicide rates, school shooting, etc. We can't even learn about intelligent design but we are sure force to learn evolution. The problem with us is that we are trying to push those progressive changes on people instead of letting them slowly make those changes.

I'm not defending those officials for questioning those questions. What I'm saying is that it is different over there than over here. I.E--- Going into Iraq is the biggest mistake ever especially trying to bring democracy. When changes happen to quick people are uncomfortable with it especially people with a conservative society like Thailand. Gradual changes are the key.
 

marduk

Sarnie Clown!
An open society is not necessarily the best case. Let us look at the US model. We have free speech, assembly,
petition, religion, and press. Our society (in the US) is just as worse in treating women. Look at TV,
people are parade around like sexy objects. Society has rules because people has never been able to govern themselves that is why government was form in the first place. The US, we have democracy but yet we have the highest murder rates,suicide rates, school shooting, etc. We can't even learn about intelligent design but we are sure force to learn evolution. The problem with us is that we are trying to push those progressive changes on people instead of letting them slowly make those changes.

I'm not defending those officials for questioning those questions. What I'm saying is that it is different over there than over here. I.E--- Going into Iraq is the biggest mistake ever especially trying to bring democracy. When changes happen to quick people are uncomfortable with it especially people with a conservative society like Thailand. Gradual changes are the key.
I agree that an open society is not necessarily the best case. China is a good model for that. Because of its immense population and ethnic diversity, I actually think it's good that there is more control in that society. However, I'm talking about this in the context of education. How can one fully be educated, when censorship is around? About the intelligent design thing, I have a huge problem with that argument. I hear it all the time, but there is a HUGE difference between evolution being allowed to teach in school while intelligent design is forbidden. Evolution is supported by objective scientific evidence. It has never been described as fact because it is still a theory. A theory is an explanation of scientific observations. With intelligent design, it is conjectures based on implied evidence (.ie the state of being has to have a first cause and something has to initiate that, thus there is an invisible hand behind all of life). However, you can't teach that in school because there are no hard evidence. It is just a belief.

Finally, I agree that we still have gender inequality in the U.S. but to say that we're just as bad in treating women is a statement that I cannot accept at all. In Pakistan, women there get raped and cannot even say anything about it because they will automatically be ostracized by their family. In Sudan, two women were stoned to death because they were charged with adultery and could not even use a lawyer to defend themselves. Yes, we have gender inequality here in the U.S., but women here have waaaay more rights than women around the world. If pay inequality was found to occur, women can sue here (as in the Walmart case). If they decide their husband is an idiot and they want to cheat on their husband, they can do that and not worry about the repercussions (what that says about the institution of marriage is a different story). The point though, is that women here enjoy a much wider range of freedom than almost anywhere in the world.

Also, I agree that the Iraq thing was a mistake. Heck, I had no idea why we were there in the first place. But about the gradual change in Thailand, isn't that what we're doing right now? We're debating the nature of Thailand's laws in the hopes of coming to an understanding of what is the best path for Thailand to take. Sure, both of us probably don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. But others who read our debate might take something out of it. Then they'll share the ideas and eventually some changes can occur. That's why I feel it's important for that professor to be allowed to pose those questions in class. You have to be able to criticize the current state of society in order to progress.

To Darv: Yeah, I do wonder what the King thinks about the situation.
 

ijohn

sarNie Adult
---i think what makes us different then Thailand as i have discussed this at length from politics to military actions and the true nature why we do the things we do with friends in Thailand and here... i can say one simple thing that makes us different and a more stable nation then most... the US is a nation built on and rooted in law that all men/women are created equal and no one in the US is above the law... people are only entrusted to manage this great nation with the will of the people through the electoral/political process... in Thailand the nation is ultimately ruled by men above the law who see fit to change them,,, to benefit the will of the monarchy born to govern... some in Thailand are above the law... just think of how many times they trampled over their own constitution since establishing it in the 1920's...

---the yellow shirt thing oh well we do that here to in many forms to support many causes... how many damn color ribbon pins do we have in America and those damn little fishes denoting "hey look at me i'm a Christian"---lmao

m2c
 
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